On the 'Cotton Ceiling' controversy

[marjaerwin]

As a lesbian womon, I am tired of the pressure to make myself romantically and bodily available to men. In straight circles, other womyn have insisted that every womon is really heterosexual and I'm in denial. In queer circles, some womyn and some men have insisted that everyone is really pansexual and I'm in denial. I think it's important to have people and communities which respect our lesbian identities.

As a trans womon, I am tired of the messages that tell us that our bodies are wrong, no matter where we are on the healing process, or that our identities are wrong. I am tired of the messages that tell our sisters that if they are attracted to trans womyn, they aren't really lesbian, and I am tired of the messages that tell us that if we're attracted to non-trans womyn we're intruders and if we're attracted to other trans womyn we're fetishists. Or 'pretendbians.'

You know what? I don't think anyone should feel pressure to sleep with trans womyn, or to never sleep with trans womyn. I do think it's important to recognize the body-policing and body-devaluing and work against them. And I really think it's past time to stop devaluing each other's identities and stop saying someone isn't lesbian because she is, or isn't, attracted to certain womyn's bodies.

Anyway, there's a brief anti-inclusion mention of the controversy here: http://bugbrennan.com/2012/03/13/178/

And this is also relevant, although I think sexualization and desexualization are both major problems: http://gudbuytjane.wordpress.com/2011/10/13/dating-from-the-margins-1/

Comments

[sister-bluebird.livejournal.com]

That first link. What the hell...? *unhappy headshake*

[marjaerwin]

Brennan links to the original site with the conversation. But I'm not comfortable linking over there.

[sister-bluebird.livejournal.com]

I suspect I can infer. It's just one of those arguments that startles me in its absurdity and outright meanness. :/

[bugbrennan.livejournal.com]

By "anti-inclusion," do you mean "lesbians don't want dick are bad"?

[marjaerwin]

I got the implication from your comments and especially from Femonade's comments that you don't think womon-loving trans womyn are lesbians, and you don't think other womon-loving non-trans womyn who are involved with trans womyn are lesbians.

I don't think either side should be pressuring womon-loving womyn to be attracted to trans womyn or to never be attracted to trans womyn. Some will be, some won't be.

[cathy brennan (from livejournal.com)]

A penis is not a female organ. Easy peasy.

You be you. Best wishes to you!

[valeriekeefe.livejournal.com]

You think that by repeating your tautologies we will somehow come to understand. Actually, Cathy, womyn like us do understand, we just don't believe your insular worldview, one that would pretend that men are womyn by dint of mullerian bits or birth assignment, or that womyn are men by dint of a lack of mullerian bits or being coercively assigned at birth at variance with neurological sex.

[bugbrennan.livejournal.com]

blah blah blah - keep talking about mullerian bits, it's helpful.

[valeriekeefe.livejournal.com]

I come to expect more high-minded debate from someone who brags and blags [sic] about the precision she learned in education. That it isn't forthcoming is not surprising. Your need to engage without said logic and precision is, however, most surprising.

It's a shame, I hear Jesuit and I think of the crystal clear liberalism of Trudeau. I would have greatly enjoyed debating someone of that intellectual calibre. Do you think it's the LSE that teaches argument beyond a repetition of the thrust of the thesis?

[valeriekeefe.livejournal.com]

"You know what? I don't think anyone should feel pressure to sleep with trans womyn, or to never sleep with trans womyn. I do think it's important to recognize the body-policing and body-devaluing and work against them. And I really think it's past time to stop devaluing each other's identities and stop saying someone isn't lesbian because she is, or isn't, attracted to certain womyn's bodies."

Yeah, that's totally what she said, dude.

[marjaerwin]

Having now seen the workshop description that set off the debate, I have to agree that the workshop seems to be misguided, although I don't think it's hopeless[/unsalvageable].

I think there would be a place for partners and allies to go over their feelings towards trans womyn's bodies [without assuming everyone will or should get to the same point; some might already be attracted, some might never be attracted, some might work through specific issues], but non-trans partners and allies aren't even allowed in the listed workshop. Most of us have already thought through our feelings towards our own bodies. And I'm not sure what she means by 'overcoming barriers' and 'strategizing.' At least half of this workshop is about non-trans womyn's sexuality, choices, and boundaries, and it ought to at least include non-trans womyn.

[bugbrennan.livejournal.com]

awww you can link! I don't bite! FCM does though!

[valeriekeefe.livejournal.com]

My particular favorite was when FCM refused to allow a post asking how she reconciled [her own words] with [other words she'd uttered within weeks which were completely contradictory]

There are people who want to engage and then there are people who want only the appearance of engaging... and striking the pose of a reasonable apologist and then refusing to reason doesn't make you the former.

[marjaerwin]

This seems relevant:

If you don’t sleep with women ........

If you are a feminist who is not sleeping with a woman you may risk hearing any of the following accusations: “You’re oppressing me if you don’t sleep with women”; “You’re not a radical feminist if you don’t sleep with women”; or “You don’t love women if you don’t sleep with them.” I have even seen a woman’s argument about an entirely different aspect of feminism be dismissed by some lesbians because she was not having sexual relations with women. Leaving aside for a minute the motives for making such accusations, there is an outrageous thing going on here strictly in terms of pressuring women about their personal lives.

[from here: http://www.cwluherstory.com/lesbianism-and-feminism.html ]

In this case, we have several groups politicizing sexuality from contrary directions [And the heteropatriarchal reactionaries are more powerful than any of us]. But it's still 'an outrageous thing going on here.'

[cathy brennan (from livejournal.com)]

A penis is not a female organ. That is all.

[valeriekeefe.livejournal.com]

You think we don't understand, but we don't believe you.

[bugbrennan.livejournal.com]

Oh, look, you can also quote the Magnetic Fields. Yey you!

[valeriekeefe.livejournal.com]

Yes, your rubber-glue idiom proves useful in turnabout...

Well, not so much useful as apropos.

[bugbrennan.livejournal.com]

Marjaerwin you might be interested in this http://www.thepetitionsite.com/917/570/206/support-womens-sexual-autonomy/

[marjaerwin]

I am holding out hope that the workshop can be restructured into something that will respect everyone's sexual autonomy. I am confident that's already part of the intention, but being about faab womyn while excluding faab womyn would undermine that part of the intention.

[gwen clark (from livejournal.com)]

The whole penis thing is a red herring. If you look right down those posts the author doesn't believe ANY transwoman is actually a woman, penis or not. Standard rad femme hatefest against transwomen...again.

[bugbrennan.livejournal.com]

Lesbians aren't interested in penis. That isn't hateful.

Also, who gives a shit if people don't think you are women? You be you. You exist.

[gwen clark (from livejournal.com)]

You're missing the point. Radical feminists don't accept post op transwomen as women. It's in the comments. It's not about the penis although I totally get a lesbian not appreciating it in a partner....totally. That's why the whole penis thing is a derail. It's not really about the penis if you don't accept post op women as women. Whether you accept a post op transwoman as a sexual partner or not is between you and her. I AM post op and I get called a guy rapist as well. The whole article including the pregnancy bit (because if there was any dialog between trans and red fems at all you would know that pre op transwomen are sterile within 6 months of starting hormones, mostly don't ejaculate and have difficulty even getting an erection)is shockingly ignorant and transphobic and that's before you get to the comments. The sad part is most transwomen I know would be totally repelled by any thought of coercion in the bedroom or anywhere else. All I think is really being asked (although the language used was appalling) is that we not be dimissed as sexual partners just because of a label. If it's a deal breaker in bed, it's a deal breaker, anyone would get that.

[cathy brennan (from livejournal.com)]

I am not missing the point. Lesbians are female homosexuals. We don't want sex with males Respect that.

[gwen clark (from livejournal.com)]

Transwomen are women....respect that.

[marjaerwin]

follow-up here:

http://marjaerwin.livejournal.com/47424.html